damned_colonial: The lamp outside 221B Baker St (221b)
damned_colonial ([personal profile] damned_colonial) wrote in [community profile] queering_holmes2010-05-08 12:31 pm

Discussion prompt gathering

Over on [community profile] podficmeta they did something for 3W4DW that I think might work well here. One of the moderators, [personal profile] zvi, posted asking people to suggest things they'd like to have discussed on the community. So, I'm going to do the same, lifting most of the phrasing from her post ;)

Please comment to this post if there's a discussion you'd like to see happen on this community. If you have a full fledged entry, you can tell me that you'd like to do the posting. If you just have an idea you'd be okay with me riffing on, say that and I will.

I'll then post top-level posts prompting discussion on the subjects suggested.
language_escapes: The main cast of St. Trinian's (2007 film) (Default)

[personal profile] language_escapes 2010-05-09 06:38 am (UTC)(link)
I am quite interested in all three of these options, very much so.

Is there a, uh, slightly more public way to view the BSJ articles? I know some are provided by them, but are there any through other avenues?

starlady: Holmes does not photograph <s>well</s> at all (no photographs)

[personal profile] starlady 2010-05-08 07:59 pm (UTC)(link)
One thing I'd like to see: discussion of queer women's experience in the era, particularly as it differed (or didn't) from men's. With book recs.
Edited 2010-05-08 20:00 (UTC)
melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)

[personal profile] melannen 2010-05-08 11:13 pm (UTC)(link)
SO VERY SECONDED.
copracat: Mary Morstan from Sherlock Holmes (2009) (mary morstan)

[personal profile] copracat 2010-05-09 12:38 am (UTC)(link)
Just in case it doesn't go without saying that I approve this suggestion: I really approve this suggestion.
softestbullet: Aeryn cupping Pilot's cheek. He has his big eyes closed. (Wire/ damn good police)

[personal profile] softestbullet 2010-05-09 04:53 am (UTC)(link)
Yeahyeahyeah!
oursin: Photograph of James Miranda Barry, c. 1850 (James Miranda Barry)

[personal profile] oursin 2010-05-09 12:46 pm (UTC)(link)
This is a topic on which, at the very least, I can waffle about the historiographical problems of uncovering queer women's experience (and what, contextually, might thusly be categorised) at that period, with reading recs (such as they are - much less than there is for queer men in C19th).
starlady: Irene Adler, winking, partially inked out (irene)

[personal profile] starlady 2010-05-09 05:10 pm (UTC)(link)
such as they are - much less than there is for queer men in C19th

I suspected something of the sort. I think there'd be multiple hugely interested people, though!
marshtide: (Default)

[personal profile] marshtide 2010-05-10 06:21 pm (UTC)(link)
Am so very for this topic and for reading recs on the offchance I've missed something... actually I rather fancy I've read more that falls a bit earlier or a bit later, hm.
melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)

[personal profile] melannen 2010-05-08 11:12 pm (UTC)(link)
I'd be interested in talking about Holmes pastiches and contemporary detectives who aren't middle-to-upper-class white men. I'm not really sure if that fits the mandate of the community, since it wouldn't necessarily go to a lgbt place? The userinfo gives the impression that you're using a really broad interpretation of queering, though, and it might work.

I have a start on a post about it, and asked awhile back on [community profile] dreams_library about detectives in the period who were neither male nor white, so there are interesting places to go.

ETA: And I could always post about Their Majesties' Bucketeers. :D
Edited 2010-05-08 23:14 (UTC)
starlady: holmes holds his spyglass against watson's chest (intimacy)

[personal profile] starlady 2010-05-09 12:48 am (UTC)(link)
And I could always post about Their Majesties' Bucketeers.

YES.
wrabbit: (house: you & me house)

[personal profile] wrabbit 2010-05-09 06:10 pm (UTC)(link)
I think this was touched on by other comments, but it would be cool to explore Holmes and Watson as a character/duo type. For example Strangers talks about Poe's detective fiction and the queer nature of the detective character. Then there are re-interpretations like House and Wilson and to what extent the show is or is not drawing off the same tropes.
wrabbit: (house: you & me house)

[personal profile] wrabbit 2010-05-09 07:38 pm (UTC)(link)
There's certainly a history of it before H/W e.g. with Poe, but I can't say how far back it reaches. That would make its own reading list :D
oursin: Photograph of James Miranda Barry, c. 1850 (James Miranda Barry)

[personal profile] oursin 2010-05-09 07:23 pm (UTC)(link)
As indicated above in thread on the topic, I'd be happy with putting some thoughts and reading suggestions out there re queer women in the later C19th
mllesays: Irene Adler (sh // a superior woman)

[personal profile] mllesays 2010-05-11 01:48 am (UTC)(link)
Oooh, very interested in this topic! A while back I found a site discussing which operas Irene was likely to have performed, which is another, related topic I'd be interested in discussing.
naraht: (Default)

[personal profile] naraht 2010-05-18 01:23 am (UTC)(link)
I'd definitely be interested in this!
ingridmatthews: (sherlock holmes two of us sitting room)

[personal profile] ingridmatthews 2010-05-11 01:10 am (UTC)(link)
I'd like a topic about Watson as an observer of Holmes. Obsessive, list-making, hand-fetishizing repressed lover or just a thorough journalist/biographer?

I think Holmes deduced it was the former, in not so many words. ;)
oursin: Brush the Wandering Hedgehog by the fire (Default)

[personal profile] oursin 2010-05-15 08:12 pm (UTC)(link)
Watson as archetypal C19th observational scientist?
melannen: Commander Valentine of Alpha Squad Seven, a red-haired female Nick Fury in space, smoking contemplatively (Default)

[personal profile] melannen 2010-05-11 09:08 pm (UTC)(link)
How about Holmes as asexual, in the context of queer readings of Holmes, modern asexual identities, and the ways previous commentators have used asexuality to refute his queerness?
ilthit: (Default)

[personal profile] ilthit 2010-05-14 06:21 am (UTC)(link)
I was just about to ask for this. :D Well, more or less.

I've been trying to write Holmes/Watson fic and I'm finding it extremely difficult, because any way I play it Holmes turns out to be an asexual. Even if we assume he's asexual and aromantic by choice, having rejected sensuality on intellectual grounds, that doesn't make his asexuality any less legit.

I got no further than positing Holmes and Watson as a couple in love that doesn't have sex or talk about being in love, having it merely tacitly understood, with Holmes as a repressed bisexual rather than naturally asexual and Watson as a healthy sensualist who used to consider himself heteroromantic (though he wouldn't use that word of course) before Holmes. Clearly I need to read more slash...
ilthit: (Default)

[personal profile] ilthit 2010-05-14 06:22 am (UTC)(link)
(Nitpicky note: asexuality could be considered queer in itself. But I know what you mean.)
kindkit: Text: im in ur history emphasizin ur queerz (Fandomless: Queer history)

[personal profile] kindkit 2010-05-12 04:10 am (UTC)(link)
1) The cultural norms issue, especially as it turns up in the anti-slash argument in Holmes and other historical fandoms: "But they wouldn't have done that! That was criminal/sinful/taboo back in those days!" It would be nice to get into some nuanced discussion of how people are influenced by their culture's sexual ideologies without necessarily obeying all the rules.

2) The nineteenth-century medicalization of homosexuality, especially since Watson is himself a doctor.
oursin: Photograph of James Miranda Barry, c. 1850 (James Miranda Barry)

[personal profile] oursin 2010-05-15 08:16 pm (UTC)(link)
how people are influenced by their culture's sexual ideologies without necessarily obeying all the rules

Anna Clark, in Desire, which is an overview history of 'Western' sexuality, has a very useful formulation of 'twilight moments' for behaviours which were condemned or at least not approved, but nevertheless took place. (It's a useful read generally)

I think I did some bibliography on C19th definitions of homosexuality as a comment to an earlier post, but the medicalisation issue and how influential it was is something I could oh so easily expand on!
kindkit: Text: im in ur history emphasizin ur queerz (Fandomless: Queer history)

[personal profile] kindkit 2010-05-16 12:46 am (UTC)(link)
Thanks for the rec! And more from you on the medicalization issue would be great.
marshtide: (Default)

[personal profile] marshtide 2010-05-12 07:00 am (UTC)(link)
Kind of following on from the general stuff about queer womanhood that's being discussed at the moment, I'd love some more specific discussion of Irene Adler as a possible bisexual character. I'll just leave this here and run off again to try and work through my thoughts on the topic a bit more thoroughly.
ilthit: (Default)

[personal profile] ilthit 2010-05-14 06:33 am (UTC)(link)
Or genderqueer, perhaps? Adventurous and wearing men's clothes doesn't necessarily indicate lesbian or bisexual, though there might be a link via lesbian subculture, and historical female crossdressers who may have partly inspired the character, such as La Maupin and allegedly George Sand, were bisexual.
marshtide: (Default)

[personal profile] marshtide 2010-05-14 06:42 am (UTC)(link)
Sure, & I'm all for genderqueer interpretations as well, but I do think bisexuality is a valid possibility. This is basically a problem common to a great many actual historical figures, though - that one really can't distinguish between identities which are more to do with gender and identities which are more to do with sexuality in a great many cases. ETA: and of course it can be both.
Edited (inability to form complete thoughts) 2010-05-14 06:43 (UTC)
marshtide: (Default)

[personal profile] marshtide 2010-05-14 07:13 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, yeah, that'd be good. I sort of tend to think of sexologists' ideas as applied to queer women really got going a bit later, with people like Ellis, though I guess Ulrichs et al really were talking about both to a certain extent - it just gets more attention as applied to men. (Which then takes us into the tangled realm of the invisibility of female queerness...)
ilthit: (Default)

[personal profile] ilthit 2010-05-14 07:41 am (UTC)(link)
Well, bisexuality's a possibility, I was just saying there's little real indication of it; we don't see Irene interacting with any other females, so it would have to be inferred from literary inspirations and/or cultural signifiers. It'd be interesting to see the case properly put, though; it's been a while since I read that story and I'd have to do more reading about 19th century lesbianism (all I know comes from Victorian and 18th century porn, the idea of romantic friendships, biographies of crossdressing women and some anecdotes about the lack of legislation, and it's all sort of jumbled together in my head). Irene does cross the gender line quite gleefully, though, and it would be interesting to think about how that might compare to modern genderqueer identities.

Now my mind's going off on a tangent about women's rights movement and caricatures of the activists and that naughty "bifurcated girls" magazine cover I saw in The History of Girly Magazines. This is why I'm bad at academic discussions. All connections and no conclusions.
Edited (A confusing typo!) 2010-05-14 07:41 (UTC)
ilthit: (Default)

[personal profile] ilthit 2010-05-14 07:59 am (UTC)(link)
:D Don't worry, I didn't take it that way!

Is it okay to make that post even though I have no conclusions to offer? I'd just like to see someone else put it all together!
marshtide: (Default)

[personal profile] marshtide 2010-05-14 08:08 am (UTC)(link)
Oh, please do. It's more about getting discussion going than having conclusions right off the bat, surely. :)
marshtide: (Default)

[personal profile] marshtide 2010-05-14 08:07 am (UTC)(link)
That's how quite a lot of things about identity have to be interpreted in this sort of context, though. Which isn't to say I'm necessarily right, for whatever value of, but this does come back to the invisibility of this stuff in general, I think.

We really should take this to a top-level post, though. [personal profile] damned_colonial is correct. Oops. ;;

Oh, well, sounds like a pretty interesting tangent, anyhow. :D